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tv   Book Discussion on Ronald Reagan  CSPAN  August 18, 2016 1:45am-2:47am EDT

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thing that happened at this is my last slide herbivore cutters put this out for sale and they said when they were questioned its just natural wear and tear random coloration. well among other things that almost exactly where he was shot and that was appalling they would do this. it's one of the things that drove me to write this book because -- that is an ugly shot. let me -- >> they changed the logo. i read it in 67.
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does anyone know how to turn this thing off? >> i apologize for that image. that's basically the backdrop. i knew when i first saw the i had to tell my wife and then i discovered which i should have discovered earlier that the university had 130 histories they had collected. the archival people at the library deserved medals, every one of them.
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they've done a spectacular job collecting information. what i had to tell the story is basically 130 memories and then i supplemented that with my own interviewing.yo let me give you a sense of what that meant from the rating poinh of view., a woman named diane gallagher was working at a pizza joint when somebody comes bursting in the door and they start a little riot out there on the street and she says the revolution has begun so naturally she took her apron off and gave up her pizza cutter job. there was a guy named denny benedict and he tells the story
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they drop the projecto projectoo say to the students the rotc is on fire in the nationa, the nats coming to theiona campus, you ct leave the building. building.. was a kid going to do? leave the building as fast as you so he jumps through the laundry room window and goes to the corner and there is a truck coming. they talk about 50 other people and they were all doing marijuana.
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they talked about the parking lot when he was hit and this is a 190-pound guy which just tore me apart, trying to make sense of chaos to the administration in restaurant. he's pretty well known from, what's the comic strip? he tells the story he'd been out photographing and decides when they start marching back up the hill but the excitement is over. so he rushes back to turn in his
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film and a kid comes rushing in, goes and this and starts crying. the vietnam veteran told another story. he is tall jeff miller on the street. she didn't get to the demonstrations because they went back to the dormitory and she doesn't know what happened.. she sort of sees people running towards the dormitory and sees her boyfriend running towardsy the dormitory.and sh she runs downstairs to meet them and falls to the ground.
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stories like this all over the place that are underrepresented that they are deposed. the court action went on for ten or 11 years time and time again and it read the depositions to make sense of what was going on in their head at first they hint at the same party line but then as you get further out from inside what this looked like to them there was a private first class who said within 25 feet from my end i was being hit in
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such a manner that put people tp death. he's trying to be literary but i read enough accounts like that but for the majority of the guardsmen there was a riot going on in their head. a woman named rose and who lived in downtown was in the backyard with a bunch of mothers andlitte babies and there was a roofer working next door and all of a sudden he shouts down my god they shot the guardsmen and for those of you here that's how the story went out. the next communication traveled around the country.
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the story might have gotten out a. they were one of the students who were nowhere near. do they have any effect on your life and for the next five years it felt like posttraumatic stress syndrome. it is a tremendous effect. people tell me i think it probably is an intense read.
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i feel like i'm channeling the memories that i saw the protest urban outfitters determined to get it right [inaudible] i finally decided the only way to do it and be true to what i thought was important to start the book on vietnam. 17 people but there was a midair collision between two helic helicopters.
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then i guess i also -- you think of it as sort of binary but it wasn't there and here and then and us. there is a guy that's one of the more moving stories and. interviews. timothy's brother had been killed 19 days into his tour in vietnam. he was a senior education major teaching i forget exactly where but he heard about the shootings and rushed to the hospital where his father was dying of prostate cancer and he gets there and
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they are bringing in their and h wounded and his father dies at the same moment. the story just broke my heart. they told a story about how protesters through a bottle in over her head but nonetheless very sympathetic of the cause she had a nephew she raised after his mother died, he was shot on the first tour of duty getting out of the helicopter and never even hit the ground when he was killed. one i mentioned earlier is another veteran so i thought if i could just quickly i want to read the final page i hope this doesn't give anything away so
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don't let it discourage you from reading it. let me get my glasses on. then i will take some questions and comments. i had just marked but of course i messed that up. in the legal sense what happened might have been murdering the second reaso esp or wagner toldd frost. more likely it was manslaughter otherwise but they would have convicted him of the crimeme ses seeming unlikely even without procedural roadblocks. they respect the law and treat them with common sense. miserably for the preceded
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shootings and the wrong tools that the guard was there at all. students and outsiders behave poorly. way too much beer is just as much or a bigger reason. this is a charge in history. ins whatever the insult but he found the officers in the wee hours of saturday morning and when he heard the call in to solve the opening for a man trailing in the polls but all of that is background noise to the shootings i and the larger partf the vietnam.
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the eastern one in ohio and week out the ways but should those experiences have a final thought. the best thing that could happeh for those that were close to their heart just to get beyond who did what and when. in an interview during theice wx commemoration, janice talkedou about a speaker who vowed she would never forget. it tore my heart out. i will never forget and i think they are important but there is no forgiveness or healing. thank you. [applause]
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[inaudible] and i also mentioned in the book i had about three hours of sleep. how much did you have the day before? .. photographer he was taken at one point as a sniper in the sniper, did materialize. there was a guy who had a tape recorder sitting on his windowsill in what is now the famous tape which if you listen to it a certain way you can pick up for bang, bang, bang, bang seven seconds before the action
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shooting. that could be out in what you call and the second man on the grassy knoll. the guy on the grassy knoll in the story in a way. i don't think, i think that's secondary. i think it precedes the shooting by so much that it doesn't comport with anything anybody says. i think the shooting was not caused by sniper fire. yes maam. >> i had two children in elementary school at the old university school and i went to pick them up and was told i couldn't take them out because there were snipers on the roof and i took them anyway and we literally ran out like this to get in the car to go home. >> there were couple of kids that tell stories. one girl 10 or 11 years old
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tells of getting on her bus, the elementary school bus and she said the big guy gets on with a baseball bat and they tell them to lie on the floor. there are a lot of stories like that, terrifying stories. there were a lot of rumors sweeping. maid heard some of them to the students were going to attack. >> we were afraid of the water being contaminated so i guarded that. >> all night at the present time and there were a couple of guards. there was a neighbor they came out in the morning and gave us coffee per day also guarded, i forget that we were all over. >> people forget there were over 1000 guardsmen.
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a lot of those never got on campus and a lot of them, kent was under marshall law too. it reminded me of a story, very prominent rumor that they were going to spike the water supply with lsd. >> just a couple of comments. terry norman leno was an fbi informant. and in terms of that one of the things i was wondering about in your research if he looked at the investigations of kent state in 1969 and would be willing to talk about you know these, many of these rumors that talk about are very similar to the tactics used in colintelpro. i wonder what you think of the governments involvement and just
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general leading to an atmosphere of distrust in the community prior to that. you talk a lot about it. >> the government i think and let's remember that times. they had set the table for this so her rant page on friday night the storyline was not without support. there was a lot of bad stuff going on. in a way to think i do say in the book book that in a way what happened was inevitable and utterly preventable. it was inevitable because all that sort of stuff we were talking about it all comes together as one spot in northeast ohio and this one moment admit 1970 but at every step of the way, it's utterly preventable.
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everybody could have made a different set of decisions. one of the storylines is it keeps getting back to nixon that there was some sort of nixon hoover plot to this whole thing. actually bob halderman eventually would say he thought kent state unhinged nixon sufficiently to so it led to the creation of -- because hoover couldn't find the outside agitator the weatherman that he has sure had gotten in and they lost faith in hoover so we formed his own teleprogram. the plumbers who take care of the work but that's a good point. i'm sorry, over here. anybody else? >> john dean in his book says he thought kent state in retrospect was the end of the nixon administration. that was the beginning of it and the other thing, friday night and i wasn't there i almost
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replicate that at most state university towns that the police went in and through bunch of college students they could all buy beer, they just threw them out of the bars and that was a recipe for disaster. it was senseless stupidity. >> there were four students who had been released from the county jail just a couple of days earlier so now sts was back on the loose. >> the other thing is the national guard kind of symbolically admitted that they had messed up because two days later, thick as two days later dell corso testified in washington that there is a sniper on the ref which is really insane. someone shooting from the roof so you shoot people on the ground. >> it made no sense and wonder
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the most heartbreaking documents in this whole thing after action reports by canterbury and the last question on it was problems encountered and lessons learned and he says, none. i don't know it just hit me when i read it. i was struck that affected there were 67 shots fired, four students killed. how many when did? >> nine. >> so that's only 13. you would think with the crowd being as close as they were that there would have been a lot more fidelity is. >> there were some that were shot in the air and shot at the ground that a guy e-mailed me four days ago who had been in the guard they are and i can't think of his name off the top of my head. he said two weeks later they
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were doing target practice and they came in and he said if you guys would have been that good at kent state we could have killed 40. all the gardens were horrified and didn't know what to say and they just sort of looked at the floor. you hear these things and it's a heartbreaking story for the people who -- generational divides. a guy who still teaches at kent state told me five days afterwards a kid came back to his house and everybody had sent sent -- been said when the campus was closed. his parents and what are you doing at the set i went home and my parents were waiting by the door and they shouted through the mail slot we never want to see you again. there were a lot of stories like that and there is just a generational divide. such a horrible thing. yes, please.
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>> to you think this sets the stage iv a general disdainful look and victimizing of the students that were protesting authority that has trickled down to art domestic forces today lacks do you know there was an actual student shot by campus police dead because he got smart mouth? campus police wanted him to change his parking space or something and he started to lip off to him. look it up on the internet. it's a very recent occurrence. >> no, i missed that. >> did you happen to hear about the one who was paced by campus police while he attended a lecture by i believe it was, oh gosh who is the guy that is vice president and out?
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joe biden was talking on campus and the student got up and started to ask him some hard questions like young people are supposed to do to keep the older generation aware of what's going on and the campus police started to approach him and told him to leave and he refused. we whipped out a taser. >> what i do think is, think the military response, one of the lessons from kent state is there is too much firepower brought to the job and the firepower itself, i know you want to protect yourself. there's too much firepower and the firepower turned the demonstration from the vietnam war to the purveyors of the firepower itself creates. >> do you think campus police should be armed? >> you know, i can answer that and i'm no expert on the subject.
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>> if you want to follow up this is a commercial for the visitor center in taylor hall. it's open from 9:00 to 5:00 monday through friday and i strongly recommend it. you can do about a one hour. take drifted telling of the may 4 story. it's in taylor hall and there is parking particular in the summer could extort and early well done. >> i graduated in 1977 so i was long gone by may of 1970 but i do remember because i lived in johnson hall in 1964 and 65. the campus day parade which was always the first weekend of may also dormitories and the fraternities and sororities they had stuff going on and there was a regatta at twin lakes etc., etc., songfest. there was a guy in my dorm by the name of doc edwards who who was a organizer of the group called the canned committee to
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end the war in vietnam and they marched in the campus day parade , now what is called 59 but was then around five east main street. it was a preyed upon all the way downtown. it was a big festival. i also knew tony walsh and these guys were there before this confrontation so this was the original concerns about the escalation of vietnam. when johnson took over he suddenly escalated and by 66 we had 500,000, half a million men in vietnam. the events of vietnam in that period from 65 to 70 by frank dramatically frame what led up to this event. it was a loss of innocence. we lost john kennedy in 63 and martin luther king in april of 68 and robert kennedy.
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my brother was called up in the glenville wright in 1968 when cleveland burned because of those events. you have to frame this in the context of other bigger and he mentioned that already. >> was i try to do in the book that i forgot one thing, karl stokes from cleveland had wonderful description of him. he said he looked like a football player turned partition. it's a great description. you have been wonderful and i would be glad to sign books for anyone who would like to have it. thank you very much.
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>> hello everybody. thank you so much for coming out. on this really beautiful day.
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thank you so much for coming. before we start a few housekeeping rules. please silence your cell phones. we have a site that and we would love for you to visit. there's the science behind it with what happens to the people who lived it and those who died. as i said there was a particular commitment to kramerbooks and we
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are so glad he could be with us tonight. wonderful stories and i'm sarah by the way. i don't know if i introduce myself. bringing up authors to our wonderful local connections. so please join me in welcoming steve olson to kramerbooks. [applause] >> i have never given a talk at kramerbooks before but and really i can hardly begin to tell you how delighted i am to finally be doing this. when my wife vin and i were young newlyweds in the 1980s clinton books was where we came for date nights and winter days just two of her friends to each other right over there to work now married and live in oregon not too terribly far where -- for a way for relive in seattle.
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this place has a lot of great memories for me. euros and of mt. saint helens which was in that air on sunday morning, may 18, 1988 was one of those events was so dramatic that for people who have a connection to the northwest who remember where we were when we heard the news. i was working on this book and it was sunday morning and i was coming back from church and i heard on the car radio that it erupted or people would say there is an indication of where we were. i know where i was. i grew up in washington state but in may of 1980 i was living here in washington d.c. and we were about to get married my wife and i3 weeks away so the anniversary of eruption is a good and avert -- reason for me
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to member my anniversary is coming up. we got married in rhode island that my grandmother who still lives in a small town right-click, where he grew up was downwind from the volcano. she knew everyone would the interested. i have always figured it was a good thing that i was on the east coast because i was exactly the kind of kid who was interested in science and interested in geology. i was one of those kids who said when the volcano started shaking in 1980 at would have said i really need to go see that. i would have grabbed her friend and we would have would have jumped in the car and headed down my five, turned off on the spirit lake highway and driven up mt. saint helens to see these small puffs of -- that would come out of the volcano when it first reawakened. if i'd done that on may 17 and
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if my friend and i had camped on the volcano i wouldn't be here talking to you today. 57 people died from eruption that sunday morning. the majority of them were asphyxiated by ash that some people were blown off ridge tops were swept away in the mudflows. a couple of people were crushed by a tree that fell on them and some people were burned by the hot gases. only three of those 57 were in areas that had a designated as dangerous and two of them had permission to be there. in fact the only person who is breaking the law was the one victim, remember cantankerous 83-year-old harry r. chairman hurt used to leave his lodge four miles away from the summit down by spirit lake. so those 57 people were too close to an extremely dangerous volcano.
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where the danger zones to small? was the eruption that's much bigger than what geologists had expected and what can we learn from the tragedies of these 57 deaths and living in a world of geological hazards of those were the questions that inspired me to write this book when i moved to seattle six years ago what i discovered was this amazing interconnected story, a story about politics and money and science but it's also a story about the establishment of the national core and a story of a transcontinental route wrote. it's the story of the united states itself and all can together on that one day this one place in 1980. so the story began in rock island and one i which is a town on the mississippi river about 150 miles west of chicago. it's so hot in here.
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do you have a napkin for me? it figures i would come back to washington d.c. on the one hot day in march. this is where a 21-year-old german immigrant moved in 1856 and they took a job at a lumberyard. he had previous jobs in a brewery and on the railroad. he was intelligent and friendly and ambitious andy rose quickly through the ranks of lumberyard. the secret is my readiness to work that i never counted the hours are knocked off until i had finished what i had at hand. he and his brother-in-law, thank you very much. i will pass it around when i am done with it. within a few years he and his brother-in-law had half a lumberyard in rock island and began to expand it so it first
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they bought logs that were wrapped to down the mississippi river from the force of wisconsin minnesota and put those in their sawmills. the real money -- we will get back to warehouse or hear. their preview of the rest of the talk. warehouser knew they were money late in buying land and chopping down the trees on that land so he began to buy spans a beautiful white pine in the chippewa river in wisconsin and with the money that he made from chopping down those trees he bought orlando in wisconsin and minnesota. he was an incredible businessman and he was a good lumber man. as one of his business partner said no other other man in america knows as much about pine as he does. in 1891 warehouser moved his family including his seven children from rock island to st. paul minnesota so he would be near the center of his logging
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operation which moved up the mississippi as wisconsin became over. there he bought a house next to her to james j. hill who was another remarkable is -- this is meant visionary who was about to see that great rahway in st. paul. if you ever go to st. paul and have a chance to see the james hillhouse it's an amazing monument to the gilded age. it's a wonderful place to visit. so the two men quickly became friends. they were actually very similar and often. >> evenings at each other's houses. warehouser after a life. >> in the woods had a propensity to sleep early and -- seem like you never slept at all. he'll would be a geisha and some monologue and warehouser would he in the easy chair next to him
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but it didn't bother hill. the ice hill. the ice like to talk sony to 99 hill faced a major problem. he needed money to pay off a bond issue for the robber but at that point he had way more land than he had money. by that time they control not only the great northern railway but also the northern pacific rahway which ran from duluth minnesota 22, and in taking control of the northern pacific hill gained control of the immense land-grant so this was not property that the federal government gave to the road word as an inducement to build rail lines both the transcontinental and particular person of faith freedom return for building a line from duluth to do, an area greater than the size of florida. they receive part of its land grant from essentially from
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portland, oregon to tacoma rushing to between 1870 and 1873 so that's a reliance that parallels i-5 today. and the land-grant extended to 40 miles on either side of the road roads so mt. saint helens is about 35 miles east of i-5 so that's why when the mountain erupted in 1980, the top of the mountain, the top of the volcano was still owned by hill. hun jin ryu third, 1900 so a few days into the new century warehouser and he'll announce one of the largest private land purchases in u.s. history. for $6 an acre warehouser in his business partners bought almost a million acres of timber land in south washington stadium with that purchase along with a subsequent purchase they make made to fill in the area of the land-grant, warehouser bought almost all the land between what is today i-5 and mt. saint helens.
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and by the way this was one of the greatest investment than anyone has ever made anywhere after correcting for inflation but in the book that they made $250 for every 1 dollar they invest in the land and that's how valuable the timber was. on march 20 of that year a magnitude 4.2 earthquake beneath mt. saint helens. in the pacific northwest we get plenty of earthquakes but we usually get one or two in things quite doubt that that didn't happen in this case. there were more earthquakes until there were so many that they ran together. you really couldn't tell them apart anymore. at this point falcon knowledges were sure that basically nothing was happening aboveground. but then the week after the initial earthquake a small crater opened up on the top of mt. saint helens.
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this was the first sign and these little puffs of ash began to emerge from the crater. so mt. saint helens was last active in 1967 so it had been an active for 123 years and in march of 1980 he came back to life. so the renewed activity was a national sensation. people came not only from that states but from all over the world to see this volcano. the last eruption of a balk and now in the contiguous united states has been a northern california. very few people saw this eruption. it was in a part of the country that was hard to get to. but that was not the case with mt. saint helens. one day there were 70 aircraft that were circling the mountain and they had to bring in air traffic control to make sure that everybody would not hit each other.
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at first federal and state officials sought to limit access to the volcano by setting up work locks on the major highways. there was a problem with this roadblock. the immediate came under pressure from people who owned properties or businesses on the other side the road lock and exerted drescher on the officials to move the roadblocks and gradually these roadblocks out closer and closer to the mountains. the bigger problem is that the main roads around mt. saint helens are just a tiny fraction of all the mountains. by 1980 weyerhaeuser have been logging the land between i-5 and and -- for decades in the process the company had grown thousands of miles. anyone who wanted to get close to the mountains could drive the spirit lake highway in turn often one of these roads and climb up to one of the ridgelines and get a clear view of the mountain, set up a campus stay there for songs you wanted.
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there was no problem then. by the middle of april officials realize they need a better way of of controlling excess amounts of a ticket for service method here and began drawing lines around the volcano to the first thing they did is they churro line along the ridgeline to the north of volcano and along the eastern edge. they figured if anything came out of the volcano no one would be able to get over those ridgeline is. they had a problem on the west side between the west and the northwest side. they didn't want to expand the line onto weyerhaeuser property because weyerhaeuser was cutting the last of its old trees by the volcano. weyerhaeuser wanted to cut those trees closed on the males and have these trees 10 feet across, just gigantic trees that were there. so what the government officials did on the west side of the mountain is they simply chew the
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lines between weyerhaeuser are pretty to the west and the land of the national force to the east. that area they called the red zone. everything inside of that solid line is only law enforcement scientist could go into that area. the problem was that this red zone that came only three miles away from the volcano, so officials jour another line that generally follow the roads, about 10 miles of roads, 10 miles away from the peak. you go in this area which was called the blue zone if you have permission to do it and bloggers and other people work in the area could do it but again was the mountain they decided not to do that because they didn't want to jot into weyerhaeuser property. would be complicated from the loggers or worker to get permission to go there. there actually was no zone.
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so about the same time these lines were being drawn something very troubling was happening with the volcano. a bulge began to form on the northern and northwestern flank of the volcano. it seemed to be caused by magna that was pooling underneath the volcano in pushing out the side and this was having that's happening very dramatically. this bulls was growing by 5 feet per day. volcanologists who are studying the volcano did note that we will screw to happen with this. they thought this boat can't keep growing fervor. he would come cascading down the volcano at some point into spirit lake underneath the bulls. the general consensus of the boca knowledges was that there would simply be an avalanche and nothing else would happen. the front just happened to be on the side of a volcano. that was essentially the situation on the evening of
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saturday may 17. it was the first clear weekend after a cloudy and rainy spring and that evening about two dozen people were getting ready to spend the night in the area of mt. saint helens. harry truman who ever fees to leave his lodge was getting ready for bed on the edges edge of spirit lake and again about four miles away. inner cabinet couple of miles down the river from spirit lake so they have permission to say the cabin is that they were doing a photographic study the mountains on the deck because they could see the mountains from their deck. although many of the people around them thought there was a bit of her ruse that they were doing this just so that they could use their cabin but they still got permission to be there on the weekends.
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the next closest person to the volcano was dave johnson who is keeping watch on the volcano from that ridgeline about five miles north. johnson had never been to this location until the day before the eruption. he was with a colleague who had to go away for the evening, graduate advisers about an educational program. dave was worried about being that close to the volcano. he said nothing has been active with the volcano so i will go there as long as someone can help me the next day. seven miles away from the volcano was a photographer from the colombian newspaper in vancouver. he was taking photographs for the "national geographic" is part of a project they have been doing in a time-lapse setting up the mountains but that budget was scheduled to conclude after that weekend because something
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had been happening with the mountain. on the second ridge there was a photographer in vancouver named. black ring. .. reid blackburn. ..
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drinking beer and things like that. on the eastern side of the river there were two friends who have been at the ridge line the day before and right before that was a family and his wife lu and they had a 4-year-old daughter bonnie and a 3-year-old daughter. they were taking the girls on their first campaign trip. i will tell you a little bit more about that. on sunday morning may 18 at 5:36 just north of mount saint helens, first of all it expanded and contracted a little bit and
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something in the mountain gave way there were a couple geologists who have amazing planes and what they saw was a crack appear on the mountain from east to west into the whole side of the mountain started cascading down. it went off to the south to get away from the cloud and then they turned around and looked at the volcano and this column of ash that was rising up and that's how many people describe
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it. there was no sound from that volcano. before they could reach spirit lake, this talk ash overtook and absorbed energy so we could have gone 400 or 500 miles. they blew them to smithereens and then a few seconds later it covered everybody else with about 200 feet. so harry truman, they were dead
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before they knew what was happening, just. in seconds. dave johnson was watching it approaching and they both had the time to communicate with people. the scientists are studying the volcano as it came toward them they had about a minute or so to look at it. it must have looked like the infoworld to them. when it hit it got them and their vehicles and everything they had. into the next valley then it covered them with debris and ash
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and trees. they had been taken out of the vehicle. they never detected any of it. to the west they had time to take a couple of photographs as the last battle was approaching and adjust before he could go anywhere the blast hit the car and blew out the windows and quickly filled with hot ash. so it contained essentially no oxygen and filled up with ash. i still have a jar brought back from the wedding and it sort of has a taste like chalk come a sort of metallic taste from deep
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inside the earth. and that must'v must have been e sensation that a lot of people have. it was 9 miles away from the volcano and was completely devastated by the last cloud. as you could imagine, the story is tragic. so just how immense the devastation from the cloud was it not been for trees so if you superimpose a mess it would be around the nationals park.
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they were camped on the green river they were from the west and the east so it's sor that'sf the worst of the last. they were having breakfast that morning and he ran out and started taking photographs the cloud kept coming closer. the photographs of the volcano never capture some of the things that the eyewitnesses say that baseball and for instance the colors of the clouds were filled with green and yellow and churning like an egg


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